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WK: I don’t want to push too hard, this connection between the simultaneous building of St Peter’s Basilica and the ghetto. But it’s there. I was familiar with the restrictions from which my great-grandparents fled in the Pale of Settlement. It was a dark, dangerous place. Whereas Rome had never felt dark and dangerous. But, for many people, it was. I feel connected to Renaissance history. There are the things I’ve loved about Rome – the sculptures and architecture – and there is this other shameful history. One hundred and fifty years ago I would have been stuck in the ghetto. One takes these anomalies, these surprises, and they become the engine for work.
JN: In these lectures you speak comfortably about the Jewish themes. Do you always talk about them? WK: No, I thought I would do that in England. There’s a history of genteel antisemitism here, so it felt like the right place. I’ve not hidden my Jewishness, but it’s never been as present as it is in these
“Marx and Freud were like two
19th century secular rabbis”
lectures. It’s been a chance to think aloud about some of these questions.
When I was growing up, the figure of George Eliot’s Daniel Deronda was intriguing – he was the Jew who makes it in
London. And Benjamin Disraeli was a Jew who became prime minister. It gave me a somewhat false idea of an egalitarianism [in Britain].
The ease with which one forgets, that’s also part of history. It’s about saying: don’t forget who you were, who you are, how lucky you are to be where you are now. Compared to where you could have been, just before my grandfather was born.
JN: You’ve made films where you are in conversation with yourself as the critic and the maker. It’s similar to chavrutah, the rabbinic approach to Talmudic study in which a pair of students debate the same text. Who has the last word?
From top: Notes Towards a Model Opera, 2015, HD film installation; Sketches for the Refusal of Time (Procession), 2011
WK: I’m different people in those conversations. Sometimes I hear my brother’s voice. Sometimes my father’s voice. The rationalist and anti-rationalist. There’s a negotiation between them. Generally, the artist gets the last word.
I’m interested in psychoanalysis. The connection between the patient and analyst can be seen as a kind of Hasidic or Talmudic learning. I talk about Marx and Freud as two great 19th century secular rabbis, even though both were antireligious. But the deep structure [of their thought] feels familiar. There are deeply rooted cultural things that are inside us. n
William Kentridge’s current show, The Refusal of Time, is at the Louisiana Museum, Denmark. See kentridge.studio. You can watch The Natural History of the Studio series here: hoa.ox.ac.uk/ slade-lectures. Jacqueline Nicholls is a fine artist, award-winning visual poet and Jewish educator.
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